The Metaverse, with Ashish Kumar Singh

Johannes Castner: 0:35

Hello, my name is Johannes. I will be your host and today I have an exciting guest named, um, Ashish Kumar Singh, who is one of the earliest adapters of blockchain and the web three in the United Emirates region. He comes with experience of more than a decade in nascent technologies such as data analytics, ai, ml, blockchain, and recently is active in, in, in the web three space mostly. Which includes the metaverse and NFTs. He is, uh, heading, uh, pre-sales at Avanza Innovations, which is a Dubai based web three company and cherishes big, uh, the biggest market share in the Gulf region on blockchain and web three implementations. Uh, Ashish comes from a technical background being an engineer. So his fir uh, focus was more on innovation and new initiatives in the tech space, which led him to connect us here. And we, uh, we will talk about the metaverse and, uh, specifically today, uh, from a perspective which is not usually covered or no one usually speaks from. And then I want to say, um, you know, there is also, there will also be an introductory episode that will be related to this one that is about the blockchain specifically. So this one here is about the metaverse, the other one being about the blockchain. They're related and, uh, in, in various ways. And we will have, um, another episode for that. So, um, you know, if I, I also want to say to, to my, If you find any of the questions I ask, um, kind of stupid, um, or, or if you wish that I had asked some other questions or, or even if you liked a particular question that I asked, please let me know in the comments because I want to improve as a podcast host. Being new to this relatively. Okay. Now without further ado, uh, please welcome Ashish Kumar Singh and let's start the conversation about, uh, about the metaverse. So what exactly, let me, let me start by asking this, you know, very naive question. What exactly do we mean by the metaverse? Is this something that the company meta puts out, or is how far is that involved? And, you know, there is this idea of decentralization. I assume with opposed to meta being, you know, being, I think it has something to do with, uh, not allowing the big corporations to run away with everything. Um, but I am also not extremely technically familiar with this area. I, myself work in machine learning and AI and AI ethics, so I'm, I'm rather new to this. So please, could you tell us a little bit about what the metaverse actually is, what it is not, and how we can understand it better?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 3:24

Yeah, sure. So, uh, good morning, good evening, good afternoon, everyone across the world. Uh, so, okay. When, uh, people usually talk about metaverse, they think it's a very technical, it's a very complicated environment, which is only meant for, you know, sophisticated. Techies to work on or even understand. That's actually not the reality. Metaverse is something which internet was, you know, way back when, you know, it was just an experiment around the world. But today, if I have to put it in a very simple, you know, terminology, it's the next revolution of social revolution. Now, when it comes to social, uh, revolution, people say that. I'm still using Facebook. I'm still using, you know, other means, telegram and WhatsApp. What's new in here? So the new thing is the immersive experience. What you have been doing so far is, you know, uh, interacting on a 2D environment without putting all the real-time expressions in front of you. That is not happening in the, uh, normal Facebook or the Facebook of the words. But when it comes to meta, you can actually become yourself in there. And that's where the terminology of digital twin comes into picture. So, you know, digital twin is a terminology which talks about that. Okay. Uh, you know, what you are in the real world can be replicated in the digital world. If you are, uh, if you recall movies like Kran and, you know, other sci-fi movies, which you know, happened in the past, I think the idea came from. I mean, it, it's not new from the perspective of people, you know, uh, uh, thinking about it or, you know, uh, fantasizing about it. It's not new, but now is the time when you know it's actually being implemented. And that's why it's not just a gimmick. You know, Mackenzie just recently published a report that it's a trillion dollar, you know, uh, opportu. For the world. And that's why every, every country, be it a developed country or a developing country, and even an underdeveloped country, they are looking into metaverse very seriously. So that is definitely a serious thing to happen. Um, I'll say that, you know, people, uh, usually confuse metaverse with, you know, just gamification or just, you know, a very fancy area where you can just, you know, hang out or just, you know, chill out. It's not like that, you know, the serious people are doing serious stuff in the metaverse. So that's where, you know, people call it as enterprise metaverse and definitely I'll be talking about it in the podcast, you know, depending upon the question which comes to me. But let's understand that Metaverse is the next evolution of the social revolution.

Johannes Castner: 6:10

Of the social revolution. So what do you mean by the social revolution?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 6:15

Okay, yeah, Okay. So the social revolution means that how, like I said, how people have been interacting so far. So people have been interacting via, you know, a browser. When they want to talk to their relatives or friends sitting, you know, in a different time zone. But imagine if they can come into a digital world and they can do or feel or even sense the way they are doing it in the reality. So it's beyond, you know, like, like today we both are interacting on a camera, right? We are just using an application and seeing each other. But what if. also able to, you know, feel things. And that's actually the, by the way, the roadmap in Metaverse. Metaverse is not what you see today. If you look at the augmented reality, that is where the metaverse will eventually head into. So everything you know, will be felt across, and that's called social revolution. You'll be more social and also the security aspects. For example, if you want to meet strangers or meet, you know, new people in the real world, still, you know, there are concerns or constraints. For example, we both are talking to each other through a a mobile app. But imagine if we both can just hang out. In a place, three dimensional place where we be, both can sit and. You know, as, and when we need with all the, um, you know, utilities, like, you know, enjoying a movie together, going into the training together or even, you know, doing some sports activity, you will not believe it in metaverse. People have started building the apps where you can do, you know, the jogging or the cycling. You know, you have your own, you know, tricycle at your end, and I have mine and we both can do a race. So these things are happening. This is the efficient way of, you know, community building. So it's, again, again, i, I al I'll always put this in front of my audience or in front of the people. You know, I usually interact, it's a Gen Z, you know, technology. Gen Z is the generation which is in the twenties now. You know,

Johannes Castner: 8:15

I have to push a little bit back here because,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 8:17

yeah,

Johannes Castner: 8:17

so, so for example, because in my life there's so. Experiences that are so beautiful in the real world. And, and you know, the thing about that is that when, when I, for example, when I go to Romania, I, I went to Romania last year, um, to the, to the Danube Delta, where, where, um, there is pre-industrial level of, of birds and wildlife and you are out there and you know you can make a fire and you're the new delta and you're, you know, you experienced this and your children experience this and you're, you are there and you're in communion with these birds, you know, so it, it would be very different for this bird to be actually, uh, simulated rather than, you know, seeing a real pelican in life. And I feel there could be a danger that, that people will be taken out of the real world that will get so fascinated by what's in this sort of, In a way, you know, so as a skeptic, I might use a little bit of a drastic term here and say, you know, sort of a digital dollhouse experience, you know, and so, uh, uh, you know, will that not take us away from, from this, you know, will it not take us out of nature and, and, and will diminish this, the relationship that has already been fading, you know, so, so even the internet as it is, you know, so I'm, I'm, I'm even skeptical of it as, as being, as meritocratic as p or I have, have as much merit as people. um, say that, that it does, right? So because it does take us away from seeing wild animals and being in an, in a really beautiful environment with loved ones and your family and your children and Gen Z and so on, right? So is it not actually in a way diminishing us as a species in a way? Could it not harm us in that way?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 10:00

Okay. So that's where I think the responsibility comes in, in our hands. I mean, people like us who have been, you know, working in this area for, for, you know, for so long should segregate what is required in metaverse and what is not required in Metaverse. So again, metaverse is not a replacement of your real life experiences. you know, people, uh, and that's where, you know, the most of the people are, you know, uh, hustling into, they think everything which is happening in the real world, let's move it to metaverse and make it very cool. So that is not the, the objective of Metaverse. Metaverse is meant to actually fill the gap. So, like, for example, when I go to my customers or when I speak to new people, I always ask them if something could be done in a browser, it is not meant for metaverse. If something could be done in a mobile app, it is not meant for metaverse. Metaverse has to solve a problem which can only be solved by metaverse. So let's take few examples. The example number one is, For example, even in your case, like you said, I, I will definitely not recommend to, you know, replicate Roman Romania or, you know, uh, Dracula's Castle and let it, you know, uh, you know, like I'm sitting here and I'm experiencing it. That is not very fascinating to me. But imagine even in that area, if I'm able to actually create an ice. Which is not going to happen ever or has already happened. If I create a three dimensional view of how dinosaurs were walking and if I'm able to walk, you know, within them and I can understand the zoology geography or even, you know, um, the dynamics of that. You know, uh, era. So that is definitely a game changer. That can even have very scientific, you know, uh, uh, you can say execution. People can actually do proper study around it. And when I'm doing that, I'm saying that these, uh, you know, ecosystems are not built by some gamers or some, you know, amateurs, scientists have to come together like, you know, architect scientists. You know, the archeologists, they have to come together and build a very accurate version of the Ice Age era so that our future generations, they are not just have to read it in the books, they can experience it. That is, you know, one of the proper, you know, usage of, uh, metaverse. Other than that, if you talk today, uh uh, like I said, now, this is where Enterprise Metaverse is, you know, important. Now, when I say enterprise Metaverse, let me give you two very basic examples. Example number one. Imagine, and that is something we did in Dubai, by the way. So in Dubai, what happens is, you know, uh, it's a, it's a trading e it's a trading ecosystem or a hub. They did expo as well last year, which means they want to attract traders and business individuals across the globe to come here and set up their companies right now, if they had to do it in the old way, they can expect that every individual, like for example yourself, have to fly in to Dubai and you know, go to so many departments to open a company like you have to go to, you know, the land department to purchase a land or a shop, you have to go to electricity department, you have to go to a telco department, legal department, immigration department, so many, and, and eventually you also have to open a bank account. That means you also have to go to a bank. So you have to really. So much of time here, so much of documentation, compliance to open a company. Now, if that can be sold by some very secure ecosystem, that is definitely a good use case, right, for Metaverse, and that's what Dubai is trying.

Johannes Castner: 13:36

Well, I mean, I, I don't see any need for three dimensionality in this. So

Ashish Kumar Singh: 13:41

I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I think it's a very valid question. Now, if it had to be done in 2D space, you know the reason is you have to do a lot of interactions. What happens in three dimensional space, it's called immersive. When I say immersive, there will be a bank representative, which will be waiting for you in the metaverse. And when you come. They will welcome you and they will assist you. So what is happening in that ecosystem that if I'm a individual who wants to open a company in Dubai, I will come to that metaverse and then I will be greeted by a AI bot, which will give me a basic, you know,

Johannes Castner: 14:19

oh, so it's a bot.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 14:20

You can open a company and then he will assist me to. yeah, it'll be a AI bot. So here, first of all, you are saving some, you know, effort of individual. And when that AI bot has to subsequently hand over that individual to, you know, various persons, there will be our avatars or an agents who will be available in the booths in that metaverse ecosystem. So that individual,

Johannes Castner: 14:43

why could you not? Achieve that with chats,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 14:47

you can do that. But now comes the, that's a very valid question and I think that will help me give the answer very aptly. So if you have to do this in a centralized, you know, uh, uh, ecosystem, it'll never happen. Imagine can there be a company which can host data of a bank? Of immigration, of land department of regulators, no, right, who will give you access to so many servers. So definitely one chat bot cannot do that. So you need to have a decentralized ecosystem. That means there should be a blockchain node of the banks, of the land department, immigration. So it has to be a decentralized ecosystem at the backend. That is step number. you cannot do that in Yes.

Johannes Castner: 15:29

But those, but those departments are centralized. Right? So each of them could be just talking to you. Via a website.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 15:36

Yes. But then there will be multiple hop and hop on and hop offs. If I have to go to five websites, that's not a very good user experience. Right?

Johannes Castner: 15:44

Ah.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 15:44

So I have to unify it, but in a decentralized manner, yet make it very, very immersive. So when you are putting the recipe, the secret recipe of making it decentralized, Secure, no single point of failure, and it has to be very, very interactive with actual people you know involved in that, you know, transaction. Then Metaverse is your answer. because, and that's where, you know, uh uh, I wanted to highlight that, you know, people have this confusion that Metaverse is only decentralized. So Metaverse can be decentralized. It can be a decentralized,

Johannes Castner: 16:20

okay. Okay, great. This is a great point where I would like to ask you a question. What exactly do you mean by this? Because I've been reading about various platforms, you know, uh, such as Unity and, and de Decentraland and so on. And, uh, there are multiple sources that say that in some ways they are centralized places, really building on decentralized architecture now. So I, I don't exactly know what these things, what these things mean. Um, you know.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 16:48

Okay.

Johannes Castner: 16:50

Yeah. Could you, could you give us a good explanation of what do you mean exactly by decentralized? And what do you mean by centralized?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 16:57

Sure. So, uh, first of all, we need to understand that why decentralization is important. So decentralization is as good as democracy. So what is democracy? Democracy for the people, by the people. So if that had to happen in technology, what was happening before is, like today, Google has your entire. Facebook has your entire information, but if you want to really, you know, segregate it and give control to the, you know, the, you can say the owner of the data that makes it, makes it decentralized. And that was actually the essence of creating decentralized metaverse. But again, metaverse is just a frontend. Metaverse is your, Immersive layer where, you know, people can interact, but it has to communicate to a backend. Now, that backend option can be a decentralized technology or a centralized technology.

Johannes Castner: 17:52

Mm-hmm.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 17:53

That's why you can, you are hearing about, for example, meta. Meta by Facebook is a centralized metaverse.

Johannes Castner: 17:59

Of course.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 17:59

That means even if, even if you know you are interacting there, data belongs to them. But

Johannes Castner: 18:06

yes, yes.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 18:06

But, if you look at Decentraland, Decentraland is a decentralized metaverse, which works with a DAO protocol, which is decentralized autonomous organization, which is again, a, you know, a layer which manages the entire, you know, uh, ecosystem without having single ownership. So, in the central land, for example, if you are buying a land, if you're creating your property, it belongs to you perpetually. And you can always, you know, uh, leverage.

Johannes Castner: 18:35

So what does this mean to own land there in, in Decentraland, but what, what is it, what is the purpose of that?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 18:42

Okay, sure. So what happens is in the metaverse, you know, like I said, uh, there are metaverse like, um, uh, uh, meta mesh horizon. These are centralized. So what they are doing is they are providing you as a service, Right. That means they, they still own the metaverse, but then there are metaverses like sandbox, Decentraland Somnium Space. These are decentralized based on web3. So what happens, because they're decentralized, they still have to give some ownership to the people who are putting some investment, putting some effort to create a property or an asset there, right? So that's why they came up with the idea that, okay, if I'm creating an ecosystem or a landscape, which means imagine it as a earth. Like, okay, they have just replicated earth there. And then they're saying that you buy a piece of land, which is actually a piece of code for queue. And there you can actually, you know, uh, customize and create any architecture. You can actually open a bank, you can open a shop, you can open anything, or even you can, you know, uh, um, organize events. So it's a piece of land for you. But that piece of land will be managed on a DAO uh, method, uh, you know, method mechanism. It's not, again, owned by Decentraland. One very important point when it comes to Web three or the decentralized technologies, they don't have an hq. That means they don't have headquarters. If they have a headquarter, it's not decentralized. If you, and that comes down to, you know, the, the recent collapses, which everybody is talking about in the cryptocurrency space. Cryptocurrency by default is not centralized. But yes, exchanges were to some extent, and that's why, you know, there was always your influx of big fund or movement of funds and that created, you know, some sort of, uh, volatilitylity issue. But when it comes to meta, That's why most of the people who are very, very well aware of this technology and they know the right usage, they prefer decentralized metaverse against centralized metaverse because they know if they will not in future, the similar situation may come. So I think this is what the segregation of, you know, the border Metaverse Metaverses there,

Johannes Castner: 20:56

I understand. So, so this the, the concept of decentralized versus centralized, but there are elements of, of unity and of Decentraland that are, that are also centralized, right? So what does that mean? Like how are they centralized and also decentralized?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 21:14

Okay, so I think this is a very common confusion people have. So Unity is not a Metaverse. Unity is a software tool. Unity, unreal engine. These are the software tools or a studios where you can actually create the metaverse. When you create a metaverse, you can deploy it in a decentralized manner or a centralized manner even. We are doing couple of projects where, you know, we are using unity, but then in one of the project we are putting it in a blockchain ecosystem, which is totally decentralized, and we are also deploying the same unity. you know, application in a centralized, so unity is not metaverse. Unity is just a tool or a framework which can be used to develop either centralized or decentralized metaverse. So, uh, I think that should clear the confusion. Unity is not a metaverse, metaverse ready made metaverse today. Very popular ones are Decentraland, sandbox in, in decentralized area, in centralized, it's meta Microsoft mesh, which is coming up very soon. Horizon. Which is again from Facebook spatial. I think people should talk about spatial as well if, and I would like to put that for our audience. If they really want to explore metaverse without getting into the technology, they should go into a spatial. Now, spatial is a, is a very easy to use, easy to understand, uh, you know, metaverse, yet centralized, but it's very, very, you know, engaging. And that is the next recipe of Metaverse, which is community building. Now, I, when I, I. Do recall that I attended the one of the technology event in uae, which you know, had a very dedicated area of metaverse and web three. I saw every individual is coming up with their own metaverse. So that is again, you know, something, uh, people are trying to do, but then, people ask me, which, which metaverse I should opt in. I mean, there are hundreds of metaverse today. What should I do, So the basic answer is community. It's, it's exactly same logic, which was given in Facebook. You know, during Facebook there were so many, I'm I, I'm sure there were so many social media engines, but end of the day, Facebook had maximum audience and the users, and that's why people opted for it. Same goes for Metaverse. That's why Decentraland and, you know, uh, sandbox are very, very popular because most of the people are already there. So if you open your shop there, you don't have to hunt for people to come and, you know, buy products. They're already there. They will be notified that, you know, join us, has open a nice, you know, podcast, you know, uh, event center there and you should just come and, you know, attend. And that's the beauty of it.

Johannes Castner: 23:55

You're giving me some ideas here. So I, I wanted to ask you, okay, so this metaphor of land, so I, I take a little bit of an issue with this because I studied economics and I know something, a very, there's, there's, uh, you know, especially economic. Um, I idea with land, which is that it's finite and it cannot be, you know, you cannot make an infinite number, infinite amount of it. Here, it seems that this is not a good metaphor, right? We should call it something else. We should call it, you know, uh, I don't know. I don't know exactly what to call it. NFTs. Yeah, totally NFTs. Yeah, so I think that

Ashish Kumar Singh: 24:31

yeah NFTs,

Johannes Castner: 24:32

the concept of land has a little bit of a, you know, an issue. Uh, I mean, but I guess that's not really a big deal, but, but the economics of it will be different than that of land.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 24:41

Yes, but they're trying hard, I mean, I do recall that even in Decentraland, for example, they're trying to, you know, put the same economy of scale. I mean, for example, the lands are not infinite in Decentraland. They have already allocated. It goes like Bitcoin. You know, when the Bitcoin has been, you know, was launched way back, we knew how many Bitcoins will be burnt. You know, how many will be, you know, recreated or you know, how the, uh, you know, the things will work there. Same goes with Metaverse as well. So Decentraland land does not have infinite land, only thing what they're doing. They are launching, you know, it's like, you know, uh, you actually, uh, want to sell some properties, so you will just, you know, put few properties for sale and few, you will keep it for later stages. That's what Decentraland is doing. They're just, you know, going selective so that, you know, it doesn't become very hodgepodge for them as well. I. there definitely, you know, there are so many miners involved. It's, there is a, you know, a currency running behind it, so they're trying to manage it efficiently, but end of the day it's not infinite. It's definitely not infinite. Otherwise. Why

Johannes Castner: 25:48

interesting.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 25:49

Leading banks, you know, will invest in land there. I mean, they know it. If it's not, it doesn't make sense.

Johannes Castner: 25:56

I see. So

Ashish Kumar Singh: 25:56

it's finite

Johannes Castner: 25:57

they created, so they created an artificial finiteness,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 26:01

yes.

Johannes Castner: 26:02

Uh, about it. I see, I see. So then it can be really compared to land in that sense. So you've given us some good examples of, um, of, of how to use it. I really like the one with the, uh, the History museum or if you will, or the, the, you know, pre-history museum. Can you think of a few more that, that would really be revolutionary and why, you know, You know, that that would really not be able to be done in, in any other medium.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 26:30

Of course, we are doing something, I mean, uh, uh, something in the healthcare industry, and that's, that's definitely revolutionary from our perspective. And we are doing it with the regulators here. The idea was, That, you know, uh, when there are few cri you know, uh, critical surgeries or even some critical consultation has to be, has to happen. You have to get the experts around the globe at real time. You know, giving real time, you know, attention to how the surgery is happening or how the, you know, diagnosis is happening. and that becomes, you know, a very, very inefficient, uh, you know, uh, method if it is not happening in a real time basis with some immersive experience. And that's why, you know, metaverse has been opted as one very good technology because what happens in Metaverse, imagine the doctors sitting in Germany, in uk, in us, they just, you know, we are a Oculus and they're able to see how a particular surgery is happening and they're able to. Them right away. And they're able to even go into the, you know, the details of that particular surgery. They are able to access information in terms of, you know, what is the, an autotomy of the individual, what's the blood pressure, what is the blood sugar, what is the temperature? So, and that's a collaborative, you know, effort. How it was happening before, if you ask me, I definitely, there are very, very good apps available, but how it was happening, it was still happening on voice calls or audio calls, you know, so people were just seeing something in a two dimensional space. But when it comes to this technology, I'm telling you it's revolutionary because we are going to use AR in that we are going to, you know, bring multiple information sources so that if at all, some expert advice has to come, it comes right away. If somebody has to access a research paper, it is available. And by the way, uh, I'm sure many of the audiences knows about the Good Doctor, you know, TV series, which is very, very, you know, popular. Hello again. Sorry. I think it was my fault. And so what happens is I think my internet, um, was not good enough, so I will switched to G five now. Oh, okay. That's very strange. No problem.

Johannes Castner: 28:44

In London, we're talking about technology, technological failures, um, yeah,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 28:50

that's happens. That's fine.

Johannes Castner: 28:52

This what happened in the metaverse as well, right? Um, that

Ashish Kumar Singh: 28:54

many times. Yeah. Many a times.

Johannes Castner: 28:57

What happens, uh, if, if this happens in the media? In, in, in the metaverse, do you get thrown your avatar disappears, or no?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 29:04

Uh, no. Avatars froze. It freezes. I mean, what happens? It freezes and then, you know, you again, reconnect and it, it's like a robot, you know, like the robot freezes, so it freezes.

Johannes Castner: 29:14

Ah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's the annoyances that go with technology sometimes

Ashish Kumar Singh: 29:21

Yeah. Yeah.

Johannes Castner: 29:22

But we were, uh, speaking, you were, you were speaking about about the, healthcare, uh, case, you know, where, where. Experts can, uh, be immersed in the, in the active situation. In the active operation or surgery, for example.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 29:36

Yes.

Johannes Castner: 29:36

So, so then I wanna ask you, you know, I wanna ask you what, what can go wrong with the metaverse? You know, what, what do you think can go wrong in a societal way? What, what can, how can it harm us other than the the than the case that we, we discussed earlier where we might not be spending enough time anymore in nature and get further disconnect from it, but there, there might be some additional, um, cases where you think it could, it could be severely problematic for society. What, what, what do you think then, and how do you think we can, we can, uh, maybe, uh, be cautious about it?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 30:11

Okay. Yeah. One thing for sure with every technology, the, the risk of, uh, becoming a surrogate is, you know, a very, very, uh, concerning thing. That means if you are, uh, getting dependent on metaverse too much, okay? You will eventually not be moving out of your chair. I mean, you'll be just sitting and, you know, accessing the metaverse for every small and big thing, and that makes you unhealthy as well. You know, non-social from a real life perspective. I mean, you are still social, but actually you're not social. So that's one concern and that's a very, you know, and that's why even the Gen Z, which are very, very active in this space, they have been told now and then, That, you know, use this technology with some responsibility.

Johannes Castner: 30:57

Mm-hmm.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 30:58

and I think again, this responsibility comes on, uh, you know, sort of some regulation which has to come around this technology as well. For example, if we, if we'll keep, yeah,

Johannes Castner: 31:08

because the responsibility I think is a lot of that should be with the producer, right? Because people

Ashish Kumar Singh: 31:14

Yes.

Johannes Castner: 31:14

You know, we, we, we have evolved some deep-seated instincts and, and, and whatnot, you know, in ways that can be hacked in a way. So sort of, I feel that, you know, Facebook is doing exactly that, right? It's, it's sort of hacking into our, into our emotional, um, buttons, so to speak. And, and when you do that, you know, that's, that's irresponsible, but not from the, the user is almost helpless. Right. It's, it's not completely,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 31:42

yeah.

Johannes Castner: 31:42

I mean obviously we can, we can still make our choices and we can cho choose to disconnect from the network, but at the same time, it becomes difficult for some people, especially people who are vulnerable to this. So don't you think so? So it seems to be a, a, a producer responsibility, right? Mostly. Is it not?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 31:59

Yes, of course. I mean, it's, it's, it's a very important point and that's why I think, like I said, by the way, people are very smart nowadays. They already have thought about it, and that's why, why you think, uh, Decentraland is more popular than meta. because Decentraland does not have this risk.

Johannes Castner: 32:14

Right.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 32:14

I mean, your data is yours.

Johannes Castner: 32:16

Mm-hmm.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 32:16

nobody has your data.

Johannes Castner: 32:18

Yeah.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 32:18

You, they cannot misuse it. So, you know, there are people who knows where to go and you know, where they should not go.

Johannes Castner: 32:24

Yes.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 32:24

And second is always remember if you, if, if. you are not using a product, you are the product.

Johannes Castner: 32:31

Yes. Yes.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 32:32

That means if Facebook is providing you so much of inform

Johannes Castner: 32:37

Absolutely.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 32:37

You know, services. Yeah, they are, they are using it, using you as a product.

Johannes Castner: 32:42

Yeah. They're, and they're changing you also. So they're, they're, they're, they're really, they're changing the way that you think. And the way that your attention span works, what you pay attention to.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 32:52

Yeah.

Johannes Castner: 32:53

The kinds of things you pay attention to and so on. Uh, all in the, in the, in the favor of a few advertisers. Right. Compared to the number of, of so-called users. Yeah, exactly. So you're the product. It's a good way to put it. I, I agree with that. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so therefore, Decentraland and decentralized systems is the answer to that, although there's, uh, yeah. Okay. So that's, that's the answer to that particular problem. And also it probably will help with, I mean, so, so another thing about that is, you know, the, the science that goes with it, right? So I, I think that if we find out that there are some issues we didn't know about, because clearly there will be. We have to have this presumption of. As we go forward and innovate, which is exciting and it has a lot of benefits that we can't afford to actually miss out on. Um, and so we have to see that as well as an ethical concern to maybe we miss out on something, but at the same time, um, As we go there, we have to, we have to be careful, and we have to see when, when there's an when, when there is something happening that is unex, uh, un uh, unintentional, that has some unintentional or negative consequences. We should be quickly, quick to navigate that and to see that and to react to it. Pretty quickly. And I think only reactive. I mean, we can only be reactive in some ways, but really in, in a sense because we are moving relatively fast and we are doing some things that we have never experienced before where we certainly didn't evolve for the, for this kind of environment. So we, we, we will, um, We will inevitably have some results that probably are in some ways problematic. And how do we safeguard for that? How do we build, um, guide, guide rails, if you will.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 34:39

Okay. So, uh, what happens is, like, for example, which, like, uh, in my company we have done more than 45 blockchain projects and now we are doing so many metaverse projects as well. What we always put into consideration is how the governance layer is now, that governance layer is not just meant to have efficient system running or, you know, things going very, very, you know, performance friendly, but also the ethical part. For example, I do remember that in one of the AI projects, which, you know, I was part of, uh, you know, facial recognition

Johannes Castner: 35:14

Oh yeah.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 35:14

Now, facial recognition doesn't allow you to actually recognize the color of the individual because that's discrimination. So the AI algorithm in, you know, in the, in the, in the very, very, you know, base core does not allow you to do that. So you cannot identify that how many people have white skin versus brown skin versus black skin. They will allow you to see the age, they will allow you to see the gender. That's about it.

Johannes Castner: 35:40

Ah, the gender.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 35:41

This part of the word,

Johannes Castner: 35:42

the gender there things get tricky, especially when you go to the United, uh, Arab Emirates, isn't it?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 35:47

Yeah. yes. Yes. That's again, yeah, that's again, a valid point. So same by the way, goes in Web three and Metaverse space as well. There is a ethical, you know, uh, center of excellence. We usually, we have done that for, you know, very major companies here. Where we put forward, what should be the right enterprise architecture, what should be your policy and procedures? That means what policies you have to follow for, you know, using this technology. What should be allowed, what should not be allowed. You know, so these things actually tackle this layer of making it, you know, misused or, you know, unethical or people are trying to, you know, put a lot of, you know, uh, you can say inevitable problems. So we try to see, so

Johannes Castner: 36:30

if you are in the UAE right, um, uh, there will be certain regulations there that are particular. Peculiar to that place. But the, the metaverse is not

Ashish Kumar Singh: 36:41

Yes.

Johannes Castner: 36:41

fenced up. So you can go there and suddenly you can be discriminated against if you are, for example, in the LGBTQ community, right? I mean, we, we have another episode on, on techno womanism, which addresses, you know, this, these kinds of problems.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 36:55

Mm-hmm.

Johannes Castner: 36:56

uh, but, but that's, You know, that's a big concern for me. You know what, what if you have, what if you have different jurisdictions with dif completely different ethical ideas such as, you know, Saudi Arabia, you know, United Emirates and so on. Um, then, then, you know, how do we as Westerners, you know, with our different views, you know, compared to say, uh, the Saudis, um, you know, how do we engage on this, you know, global platform?.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 37:27

Okay. So see again, uh, uh, people usually think that, you know, the regulations or the, you know, the standards are built for a technology, for a, for, uh, specific technology. That is not the case. The the standard has to be global. So where I says global, yeah, like, you know, gdpr. No, GDPR is not very specific to, uh, AI application or a social media application. GDPR also applies to Metaverse.

Johannes Castner: 37:55

Mm-hmm.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 37:55

So even, for example, most of the Metaverse projects we are doing, you know, if you are logging in, you have to follow that. What information will go into Metaverse and what will not go into Metaverse. Okay. So, so that is the regulation, which is global. So that goes with all the, you know, all the permeation combinations of, you know, the things which you just said. For example, even if I'm building a metaverse or building any simple mobile app I have to follow and, you know, give the same, you know, uh, respect of the regulations of the country as well as the, my, uh, uh, destination country. So if my metaverse is going to interact globally, I have to ensure that the standardization across the globe is incorporated in Metaverse, so gdpr, European gdpr, United States, gdpr, or you know, other country. GDPR has to be dually followed. I will give you one example that can, Dubai or UAE data cannot go out. I mean, uh, the, the, the server has to be in country. So when we are doing Metaverse projects here, we have to use a in-country server for, you know, just retaining the data which is coming from this country, but then that Metaverse client application is accessible publicly. So what happens? It's a, it's a distributed server, you know, architecture where information of this country resides in this country, and information of other country resides in that respective country. So everybody's, you know, respecting the regulations of that country and no problem occurs. And then there are regulators who are overseeing how these applications are designed or developed in UAE, you have smart Dubai government as a, you know, a consultant or a co, you know, uh, organization who is overlooking all the nascent technologies. If you go to their website, they give you the metaverse strategy, the blockchain strategy, the AI strategy, automation strategy, which with all the dos and don'ts. So they tell you how you should do what you should not do. So similar to that, I know for the fact every country in the world have some sort of organization who is overlooking and you know, managing this. Like I,

Johannes Castner: 40:01

yeah,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 40:01

so, I mean, uh, definitely,

Johannes Castner: 40:03

but this causes problems, maybe some, sometimes more problems than it solved, right? Because the thing is that we, we, we have, you know, it can be that, that you, that you're, in order to be compliant with one country's regulation, you must actually break the, the, um, the compliance with another country, right? Because they can be in conflict. Ethical systems, as we know, are not really truly always univers. There, there are, there are areas of disagreement in various areas,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 40:29

yeah, that's where I think innovation,

Johannes Castner: 40:30

that's where it gets,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 40:31

yeah, that's where I think innovation comes. For example, I'll give you one small code. If you would've asked, you know, long time back a horse rider that, you know, I want to move very fast, he would've recommended you a faster horse. Nobody, nobody would've thought about a car, right? So when the car came, it was a innovation or thought process, which nobody liked. you know, people would've said, why not? Why not opt for a faster horse? You know? So same goes with innovation as well. When innovation comes first, you have to focus on the technology maturity. That there is a hype curve, which talks about how the technology has to evolve from just a gimmick to a proper, you know, uh, fourth industrial revolution, you know, uh, element. And that goes through the entire,

Johannes Castner: 41:14

but. Mean, if Mr. Daimler had known, you know, the inventor of the automobile, if he had known that at some point there will be lots of these cars everywhere in the world and they will cause,

Ashish Kumar Singh: 41:26

uh, lot of pollution.

Johannes Castner: 41:26

A big contributor to Yeah. And pollution and, and climate change and so on. Maybe. Maybe it would've been a wise thing to pull back, actually. So it's not always clear to me just because something in the past worked out the way that it did. Right. It is the inevitable that we must follow this kind of, you know, inno innovation for innovation's sake and, and everything else, all other concerns are secondary. So there it, it must not be that way. Right. So you could.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 41:51

I mean, that's

Johannes Castner: 41:52

of course, you know, these things are hard to foresee. you know, Daimler could not have seen that this could have happened.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 41:57

Yes. I mean it, so that's where it's actually the two stage phenomena. One stage is innovation and then there is a industrialization of that innovation. So, you know, for example, when possibly he would've thought about cars mm-hmm. he thought to solve a problem, and that's about it. That's innovation. But then there were hundreds of people who said that, let's make money out of it. Let's, you know, make it a habit for every individual to sit in one car and then, you know, three by four of that car is not occupied and use it. And that creates traffic, right? If you look at the maximum cars, you know, being driven in any country, if just as individual, why not take a bike? Why not, you know? Carpool, they don't do it right? So nobody thought it's an industrialization. It's a habit which was brought in our, you know, uh, mind through, you know, through the commercial aspect of the industries. I know one example, I was reading it recently that, you know, um, uh, long time back, um, you know, one of the razor companies thought that okay, the, the, the women hair is you know, is, is not a very, you know, good, you know, way of, uh, beauty. I mean, it's, it, it doesn't look beautiful. And they started portraying it as a, you know, as a, you can say, uh, in the, in their ads, in their commercials, that, okay, if you have hair in your legs, you are not beautiful.

Johannes Castner: 43:19

Yeah.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 43:19

So, you know, before that it was not even a thought in the mind of any individual.

Johannes Castner: 43:23

Of course. Yeah.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 43:23

But then people started thinking about it and that's where, you know, people started buying the blades and, you know, it now became a, uh, a very, you know, normal thing, default thing. Right. Nobody, uh, people will actually think that the other side is ugly. So that was natural. Right. The natural thing has been moved to a more, you know, unnatural, uh, aspect.

Johannes Castner: 43:44

Yes. This

Ashish Kumar Singh: 43:44

is, this is a habit.

Johannes Castner: 43:45

This is the thing about culture This is a, you know, you can come up with arbitrary reasons why something is now beautiful or not so beautiful, and, and almost anything can be can be beautiful or not beautiful, and, and so

Ashish Kumar Singh: 43:58

Exactly.

Johannes Castner: 43:59

Yeah. That's, uh, that's true. I really appreciate, If you, if you want to say something else, you know, do you have a, for example, a book or, or something you want to plug on this show, something you want to tell us about the audience?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 44:17

Yeah, no, I think, uh, in the end, what I want to, you know, highlight to everyone, people, you know, should, uh, learn about metaverse, you know, it's always

Johannes Castner: 44:26

mm-hmm.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 44:27

recommended to stay in the, in the, in the game. I mean, at least you know that the techno uh, technology savvy individuals and even the business individuals, and I'm giving you this example because, you know, when, uh, robotic process automation. Just a concept, you know, I started reading about it and I also worked on this area for some time. I realized that okay, it is definitely going to, you know, give some, you know, impact on how things you know goes. It eventually did. So I knew for the sure that, you know, it'll happen with Metaverse as well. Metaverse definitely is. It may not become your defacto technology. It may not become part of your life as a major, as a major thing, but it'll stay, it'll, it's going to stay, it'll stay there. So if you learn it, if you know about it, you might be able to contribute it in a, in a better manner. I mean, like you said in a very beginning, you know,

Johannes Castner: 45:20

yeah. What you just said. Raise this a bit of a question for me too. How do you think this will affect the, the, the future of work will there be, you know, uh, because if, if, let's say a larger proportion, maybe not everybody, but if a large proportion of people start engaging in the metaverse in terms of their professional life, then what might have effects on people who are actually not in a na, a metaverse at all in their professional life, you see? So, um, what do you think about that and how do you have spent much time thinking about the future of work with respect to the metaverse?

Ashish Kumar Singh: 45:53

Yes. I think, uh, when it comes to, you know, the, the, the future of the work life, I would say there are few sectors where definitely Metaverse is going to make a lot of difference. Especially where you, the safety standards has to be taken care drilling in an oil, gas, oil and gas refinery. If an individual can opt not to go and no stand in front of the drilling, you know, equipment, it's definitely safer. It definitely much better. Uh, same goes with so many, you know, other, uh, uh, you know, sectors as well where equipments are actually doing the job and you are just monitoring. So that monitoring can also happen in a metaverse, you know, sort of an ecosystem using some state of the. AI technology. But other than that, if I say like information technology, like people like you and me, I'll say, let's, let's keep a balance. Let's not just stay only in metaverse. Let's not just only stay in person. Let's bring a balance because the balance will also improve our personal life. I mean, if you're able to do, you know, some task in Metaverse, we'll have, we don't have to commute. I mean, that commute, if you don't commute, we'll be saving, you know, some energy pollution will be lesser, less traffic. So, you know, there are, there are, uh, always benefits. I'm sure you know that during Covid,, uh, the pollution index was very low. I mean, you know, clear water, birds were out, you know, animals were happy. So that can also happen, you know, if you are opting, but always keep a balance. I mean, the balance is the, is the secret recipe of everything. If you don't keep balance, nothing is good. I mean, if you eat a lot of sugar, not good. If you don't eat sugar, not good. Keep a balance So, I mean, I'll end my conversation with this state.

Johannes Castner: 47:39

I appreciate that very much. It's been, uh, a great pleasure and very interesting to speak with you about the Metaverse.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 47:46

Yes.

Johannes Castner: 47:46

Uh, you're a great expert in this field and you have certainly, um, I, I've certainly learned something from this, uh, conversation quite a bit.

Ashish Kumar Singh: 47:54

Thank you.

Johannes Castner: 47:54

This show is published every Wednesday at 5:00 AM Eastern Standard time. Next week I will be meeting with Amara Sesay, who is a Nigerian educator, building the digital leaders of tomorrow. Tune in and subscribe now.

Amara Sesay: 48:09

Studied education in school. I discovered that there are a lot of things that are missing in terms of, uh, the nexus between what people learn in school and what the society and the digital, uh, growth that we are exp experiencing globally requires from learners.