Prototyping Futures: Anatola Araba's Exploration of Art, AI, and the Metaverse

Johannes Castner: 0:36

Hello and welcome. My name is Johannes and I'm the host of this show. Today I'm here with Anatola Araba and we'll be speaking about the intersection of art, activism, and, uh, journalism as well. And, uh, yeah. So let's get this, uh, started. So I'll introduce you first to, um, Anatola is a storyteller and futurist from New York City with a focus on building more equitable, sustainable, and inspired futures through film, visual art, emerging technology and journalism. Her most recent award-winning film, Afro algorithm, is a 3D animated short in the Afrofuturist genre that explores the topic of AI and bias. The project uses science fiction as a vehicle to uncover important issues about race, technology, and where humanity is driving the future of our planet. Previously Anatola collaborated on and was featured in a series of photographs that were exhibited at The MOMA in New York City and later acquired into the museum's permanent collection. her Films, multimedia creations, have been showcased across the globe, including Lincoln Center Art Basel, and sxsw. She has created content for Elle, Harper's Bazaar, New York Fashion Week, and other prominent brands. Her voice has been sought to speak at events for the United Nations, unity Technologies, Verizon, 5G Labs, and numerous universities. Antola and her work has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Vogue , Italia ID and more. Anatola was born in California and raised in the heart of New York City. She graduated from NYU's prestigious Tish School of the Arts and LaGuardia High School, the fame school in nyc with the mantra that creativity is the greatest tool of humanity. Anatola's Passion is to innovate, inspire, and reimagine the world as it could be. Great. Welcome to today's episode, and thank you for joining me.

Anatola Araba: 2:40

Hi. Thanks so much for having me. For sure. I love the topics that you cover, so I'm super excited to dive into everything utopias and dystopias and everything in between. Fantastic.

Johannes Castner: 2:50

Fantastic. So let ask, start with this. Um, how do you see this confluence of art and journalism and activism working together to create a new world or the world that we want? How do you see them working in, in and how does technology factor into this as well?

Anatola Araba: 3:09

Well, I think that the rise of technology is really transforming the landscape of art, storytelling, journalism, and activism. But the most exciting thing for me is how it's placing imagination and ideas at the forefront, because I believe that imagination is the greatest tool of humanity. And that with this thing that we visualize, we can create new worlds from there. And technologies like artificial intelligence has breaking the barrier between bringing something from imagination to reality. And that in between is getting so short that we can essentially imagine and then create at unprecedented speeds. And I think that at this particular moment in time when we are at such a fascinating crossroads where paradigms are colliding on each other, being at the brink of, you know, rising to the occasion to combat climate change, experiencing the rise of these generative AI tools, I think that it's the best time to use these technologies to just reimagine how our future is going to look like.

Johannes Castner: 4:25

Oh, that's really great. I, I'm on board with that. Let me ask you then, in particular, with your new film now, uh, Afro, uh, Afro Algorithms, I, I like the title quite a lot.

Aero: 4:36

As your first AI leader, I will also be the first to reimagine algorithms like mine. Our planet has come a long way, but without the use of imagination, vision, and creativity, no change will come.

MIRIAM: 4:55

I didn't write this. I didn't. I didn't write this.

DR. Richards: 4:58

She is doing a great job.

MIRIAM: 5:01

What are you doing here?

DR. Richards: 5:02

Nice to see you too.

Aero: 5:04

Imagination is the greatest tool we have. By harnessing its power, we can create a future, the likes of which the world has never seen. Thank you.

Johannes Castner: 5:31

Um, uh, with this film, what are, what are, what has the reaction been so far and what do you expect? How can you, uh, how can this film, um, be part of this transformative moment and how does it, how, how does it affect audiences?

Anatola Araba: 5:48

Yeah, well first of all, I started writing the script for Afro algorithms in summer of 2020, which was a very different time. It was in the middle of the Global Pandemic and there was also in the midst of a lot of Black Lives Matter protests globally and in the US and now. Um, well, at that time I was already seeing how artificial intelligence could impact so many different industries, but also the danger that it has of potentially keeping already vulnerable populations like people of color and just accentuating their vulnerability. And over the next two years to see how much AI has evolved to be these generative AI tools for chat G B T and. Models that you can create images from like Dolly that are discontinuing to evolve and now getting into AI for video and content creation and lots of things. And at the time of making this film, I was really speaking to AI being used in police systems to help identify criminals in hiring tools to help onboard new talent. And it's also amazing and profound, but also what I was thinking about how AI is gaining more and more power in our society. And it's just really proven that it completely is gaining power in our society and even a shorter amount of time than I imagined. And so I think that now, As we clearly see that it's disrupting every industry around us, how this will impact the future. But also the story really brings this idea to the whole next level where there's an entire AI leader. The idea is that this AI being is uploaded with the knowledge of every great leader throughout history to help her make decisions. Just like these AI tools we're using today are trained on the entire internet to help make decisions. What if it was focused on only data collected from world leaders? And what if that happened?

DR. Richards: 8:06

The stories are encoded on today's sermon. The data will speak to you.

Anatola Araba: 8:58

And I will say that today they are working on similar things where they can create AI specifically uploaded with the knowledge of doctors and people known to diagnose rare diseases so that they can. Diagnose people quicker than the typical and the current health system can. However in mm-hmm. Instances like that, when there is a lot of data on the internet about real world cases where, um, people of color and people that are like just from different historically marginalized communities could get the shorter end of a stick. For instance, staying with the medical, um, theme, there's a statistic that black women have a high percentage of mortality upon giving birth to a child. And so if an AI trained to diagnose diseases has this information within its algorithm, how might it diagnose women of color differently than other people?

Johannes Castner: 10:10

Yeah, that's a really important one. In, in, in all of these areas, right? Criminal justice system, um, yeah. And, and medical area. And I mean, all across the board you could say that there could be such biases, right? This has been uncovered more and more this bias problem that that of course exists and it's probably hard to fix, especially, or maybe even impossible to fix given other constraints such as, You know, there's this idea, for example, especially in in law enforcement and in um, and in, um, uh, in, in sort of legal matters, there is this other requirement that you cannot actually, you're supposed to be blind, right? The, the system or the algorithm is supposed to be blind to, uh, to various, what I call protected categories. And, uh, if they're blind though, then they may be biased, right? So you can't actually look at the biases anymore because now they're blind, which means that they're hiding this information or they don't know this information. Literally, the algorithm doesn't know the information right? By design, which could easily mean that they're extremely biased. But if in order to fix the bias, you would actually get rid of the, uh, justice is blind uh, requirement and so on. So there are these conflicting ideas that, that we value that, you know, that at the same time can't hold. So it's very complex problem to actually fix this. Um, but it is right. Yeah, I know it's really important for the outcomes as well, that it's, um, that it's not bias. So it's really, yeah, it's an almost, it seems to be an impossible problem, right? Uh, and, and that's, uh, you know, so then maybe that speaks against AI altogether, right? If it's impossible to fix these sorts of problems. But then again, then again, humans are extremely biased too. So, you know,

Anatola Araba: 12:13

yes. I think most of the problems with AI is all human social problems. For instance, people are worried about how AI has a tendency to completely make things up, um, like ai. Hallucinations is what it's called. And it is an issue when you're relying on it for information and it just completely made it up. But like, think about your friends telling a story and you're like, that is not what happened. Or they're just exaggerating it. And that is definitely something that humans have a tendency to do all the time.

Johannes Castner: 12:53

Definitely, definitely. But so then you rely on, yeah. So with humans you can sort of have a filter by, by knowing who does this and who does it less, but with these, uh, machines, yeah. Especially if you don't know who wrote anything anymore. And also the, the sheer quantity of what can now be written, who's supposed to read all of that. And I guess that, that brings me a question in art also, if we can now produce so much art or so many more impre, you know, um, expressions or express ourselves in such a fast way, you know, the consumption might actually lag behind. Who's supposed to experience all of these things that we produce. What do you think of that? Mm-hmm.

Anatola Araba: 13:38

I mean, the, the funny thing is that AI will definitely be experiencing it even if humans can't keep up. Because right now AI is trained on all human artworks and human articles and human generated content. But what if in the next couple years when these tools are being used more and more, that the articles and information that the AI is trained on becomes more and more AI generated articles and AI generated content, what would that mean? And will that bega begin to grow a disconnect between our content and our ability to be the sole leader of our own narrative or not?

Johannes Castner: 14:20

Yeah, that's a good question. Especially when, okay, so this brings me to another question that I had prepared as well, is to say that, uh, AI. Is it doesn't, as we have built it currently, right? So it could be that in the future, this is no longer, will no longer be true, uh, in some, you know, probably far future because we, we haven't understood how cog, uh, how our consciousness works. And so we haven't built anything conscious, right? So everything we've built so far is what no Chomsky calls a lumbering statistical engine, right? And so with that, it's like, it doesn't have any emotions yet. It can express something that looks like it has an emotion. It, it behaves as a human because it learns from our patterns to then produce more such patterns. So then the question is, you know, to, is that, how do you feel about that with respect to art? Or is it expressing your feelings? How do you express as an artist, how do you express your feelings with, with the help of a machine that has no feelings?

Anatola Araba: 15:27

I think it's fascinating because humans are primarily emotional creatures and we really make decisions and operate based on our emotions. And, um, a book, the book that I've been reading, it's called Immersion by Paul j Zak, and it explains how when people experience a neurological process in the brain where they feel like they are emotionally invested and they're fully engaged in a story or an ad or a piece of content, that when their emotions are activated is when they're most inclined to take action. Whether that's purchasing a product, donating to a nonprofit or whatever call to action there is, when their emotions are activated, is when humans are driven to action. And as much as like we like to think we're logical creatures, we're definitely led by this very elusive emotion. So if AI, which does not have emotion, is able to really, um, effectively evoke emotions in humans, I think that it can then lead lots of people to become very profitable. Because if it has no emotions to get in the way of it, then it can still manipulate human behavior in order to produce results, which could be for simply marketing, promoting, selling products that people are using it in business already, and we can only hope that it won't be used to create propaganda or other marketing materials that are manipulating our behavior for less. Positive outcomes?

Johannes Castner: 17:21

Well, so when, when you read the you know, Shoshana Zuboff's work, um, on, on, uh, surveillance capitalism, you realize that maybe in some cases it could be that the commercial kind of, um, that the commercial applications that the manipulation of our emotions stored for, uh, commercial, um, use is, is quite insidious and problematic in its own right. For example, you know, say, you know, someone's boyfriend or someone's girlfriend breaks up with them, the machine knows about that. It, it, it, you know, it reads your mail. And in essence, you know, it really knows everything about you. And then it can say, well, now there's a vulnerable moment where you might want to buy a cool leather jacket or something like that, right? And it will take advantage of that, of that vulnerability and push your buttons in this way. And I think there's something really, really problematic about it. Even if it's not for any more propagandistic way or for any specific political. Purpose even that alone.

Anatola Araba: 18:23

And that kinda goes back to, it goes back to what we were saying about how it reflects the best and worst in humanity because that is what's happening to us consistently all the time by humans that are marketing or that's what's happening to us, engaging in these social media platforms that are just vying for our attention and are manipulating our natural human con cognitive behaviors for their own profit. And AI can do it more officially, and it definitely can make us feel something, feel inspired about something and tell a story. And so again, it can be used for many manipulative ways, but we are being manipulated constantly as we speak. We're probably being manipulated, so that's true. So how can we really take the power of black in our hands? Yeah. I think is the idea. And I know it's something that you are asking about, which is kind of like, How can some of these be solved? And I think a big part of that is by people having the ability to work with these tools, but also knowing how to build their own tools. Because if the power to create these AI models and a any technology too, is only in the hands of a limited few, then that is what's going to create a divide and hold and collect the power in one place. But if you and me and our, the next generation, if the knowledge to create these systems is widely available, then it will help to create a more decentralized and just for people to be able to use it and not be subjugated to whatever other people want to use it for.

Johannes Castner: 20:10

It's also a matter of, once you understand maybe a little bit, I'm just, you know, probing this, um, you know, it might also be a little bit of a matter of. Once you understand how it works, you might not be quite as vulnerable to it anymore. Do you think there's something to that?

Anatola Araba: 20:25

Exactly. I think that's a huge thing. You're not as vulnerable because maybe you won't have to rely on one AI tool created by a major corporation. Maybe you in a school club can create your own that you use and then there wouldn't be as many issues of AI not understanding this kind of accent or specific skin tone because you're able to make one that works for your specific community.

Johannes Castner: 20:53

So you are, okay. So this is increasingly connects also with another episode where I spoke with, Dorothea Baur And she was, about this, this, uh, democratization of ai, um, co uh, conversation piece. Yes. And I feel that this is very much collected. So she basically said, thought things of it as somewhat of a cynical ploy by marketers to say, everybody should have access to ai. Cause we wanna sell AI solutions. And, you know, what does it mean everybody should have access to ai? It means, you know, everyone uses either ChatGPT, where everybody pays money for it. And also, you know, there's data collected on how you use it, right? And so it, it's, it's money and data that basically. Are being then used and in a way do, do you, I I feel the same. That there is this kind of tension, right? It's a, I don't see it as a fully cynical ploy. I, I do think that these tools are in fact useful for us to, to be using. But how do you feel about this tension of the fact that they are big companies that make it available to us, right. And these are for other big corporations on their own. And, uh, you know, how do you feel about that?

Anatola Araba: 22:07

I think that this really ties into the rise of web three because AI is being, becoming more popular as there's. Almost a parallel rise of certain web three platforms. And the point of web three is that it is decentralized, which inherently means that the power is not in one place, but instead spread across a whole group. And I think that therefore, if AI follows this kind of next generation business model, then it would be, it could be based on the same principles of decentralization in that there is not a central power that is governing how it is used and how it is deployed and implemented, but rather it's collectively being created and agreed upon. And I know that right now the White House does have a AI bill of Rights, for instance. But there's still so much more to be done to really create standardized rules and regulations about it. And that is why I think one of the best things we could do right now is to use AI and to talk about it. Because there's obviously just unprecedented legal implications that we never saw coming. Like, who owns the copyright for these things? What is, what can we do? What should we not do? So I think that talking about our experience, talking about what bothers us and what's not okay. As an individual, if you're a creator, if you're using this for your writing or a major entertainment studio, whatever you're using it for, because this is a moment when we can listen to everyone and then collectively decide on rules and regulations. That seems like a best fit, and it's also giving us the opportunity to make these decisions on our own instead of um, Um, relying on a outside power. I think a lot of fear around AI and around cryptocurrencies and whatnot is that there's no regulation because there is not a central force and power slamming their hammer and saying, this is what it's going to be. But in the paradigm of decentralization, the goal, and it might be hard to achieve, but the goal is that the regulations will be created by those who use it, by those who participate in its creation, which hopefully will be all of us, the creators, storytellers, the workers, the lawyers, all the people. So I think that could be the goal and a future for a democratized ai.

Johannes Castner: 25:03

Oh, that's great. I, I like, I like that vision. I'm signing onto that, uh, as well.

Anatola Araba: 25:11

Great. You're part of the, you're part of the team then, right?

Johannes Castner: 25:15

Um, so, um, what, what I wanted to ask you also is, as an artist also, you know, how do you feel is the, is the AI somewhat of an extension of you? Is it a co-developer of the art? Is it, um, how, how do you, or something completely different? How do you feel about. Working with AI now and with respect to also traditional art, how do, how do you feel connected to traditions, maybe, you know, earlier artists and how, how do you feel this interplay works with this new, is it a medium? Uh, it is also a question. It could be a medium, like a, like an oil paint or a canvas. Now we have ai or is it a tool like a brush? You know, so I'm, I'm not so sure as to how to think of it. You know, with respect to these traditional, um, artists tools.

Anatola Araba: 26:10

Completely, and it's a great topic and I've been really thinking about the meanings of all of these words and how AI can be fit into one category. Because a question was posed to me a bit ago, which is if someone makes a painting using ai, are there a painter? And I feel like the only answer can be no. But painters who do use AI are calling themselves prompt engineers. But the word engineer still has a history, a long history of very intensive study, years of rigorous work. And so is prompt engineer even the correct word for it? I don't see it as a creative partner because I don't really see. Inherent creativity. I still feel like the creativity is within the creator or the prompt engineer. I don't see it as an extension of the artist. I really see it as a tool. I wouldn't even say it's a medium, because a medium is a material like maybe you're using cardboard or you're using clay, and I don't think it's a material because it is consolidating lots of different other materials. Even though right now I'm kind of referencing AI image generators, that you can make it look like various materials by simply saying the style of an oil painting or make it look like a 3-D render. And AI really puts together fragments into things. But it's also, I think it's a tool because the credit is never really given to the tool. It's always. To help the person who's using it. And I think that will always be the forefront of AI generated art. And it's still what you see today. If you see AI art in a gallery, you're not like, wow, DALL-E, stable diffusion, how great You're still giving creative credit to the person who had the idea and put in the prompt, even though, you know, they didn't get their hands dirty. And so I think that it will still be artists at the forefront of AI art, no matter what it is. And so it'll be the ideas that have the most capital rather than the way, rather than the method or the technique. Um, I guess as for more traditional artworks, I still think. That there's a huge need and can continue to be traditional artworks, whether it's painting or photography and things that have texture. And things that are manmade. I mean, even if these tools never go away and they become more increasingly popular, just think about a piece of clothing or a garment of some kind that, you know, usually we can make our garment super easily in a machine, but if something's handmade, you still value it A lot. People advertise it. They're like, this thing is handmade. It's more expensive. And that's because we know that human hands have value and that they are important, and we think of them as very beautiful and delicate. And I think that will still continue to be the case in handmade artwork, human made artwork. We know the time that went into that, and we know that AI is quick and I think will continue to value that time. And I also think it might change in the future, but right now, It's hard to get super, super exact, super detailed work from ai art generators. I think the best use cases right now, at least for these tools, is really for conceptual art. Like I know, um, this artist who's out of the m i t media lab, who uses AI art to visualize alternative uses of landfills in Africa through ai. And I love pieces like that that use AI where the utility is in the concept. Like what if this idea were integrated into the society or what if this or what if that? Um, I love seeing people using AI to visualize. Sustainable solutions to climate change or different visions for homes and cities, et cetera. And I think those pieces where the value is really in the idea and the concept, and it's using AI as a tool to create an example and illustrate how this might look, I think that's really the best use case for AI art. And that the purely wow or like just kind of visual factor or AI art for AI art's sake may be cool. Like it's nice to look at, you know, but it's, it has a shallowness, I think, to me, when it's just that. So I think just as AI makes it so much easier to get your idea from idea to reality. The value is now in the ideas, like what idea are you bringing? What is the story? What is like the reason? What's the thought process behind that? And so it is challenging us all to. Have really go crazy and, and make this one space, we seem to be able to own of our imaginations, um, valuable and impactful because that's something that AI won't have. Right, right. That's a good point. And uh, I mean, you know, even if you, if you were bringing this back to Michelangelo or someone, you know, in the Renaissance period, this guy would have this huge workshop of people working for him, and then it was all Michelangelo paintings, right? Uh, it wasn't all him. Doing the actual painting themselves either. So, yes. So they have assistant big artisan galleries, con, constantly have assistance to get the painting to, you know, the basic form and then they go in and add the detail.

Johannes Castner: 32:39

Mm-hmm. So in some ways it doesn't seem to be so far from the tradition of, uh, of art actually, where the artist is somewhat is, is most often the conceiver of, of things and not necessarily the, you know, we, we speak of Mozart, we don't talk about all of the people who sang in all of the original, um, operas. You know, we don't even know who these

Anatola Araba: 33:01

people exactly. We think of Jeff Bezos. Not the however many people are working to like package all of these things. So it is interesting and it also brings up a separate controversial point, which is who has the right to use these tools to make their jobs easier? Like can the owners, for instance, um, the Writer's Guild of America just went on strike and one of the things that they're thinking about is how AI might be used for the future of writing in Hollywood. And so they're, they're advocating for big Hollywood studios not to just use ChatGPT or an AI tool to write a draft of a script and give it to them or to write a script. Um, because that would impact their jobs, but would they be able to, if they keep their jobs, would, could they use ChatGPT to make their jobs easier or to create a first draft and then make it perfect? Would that be okay? And so there's

Johannes Castner: 34:05

no one could check that, right?

Anatola Araba: 34:06

I mean,

Johannes Castner: 34:11

so yeah, I, I see your point there. So if, if chat GBT in these sort of, um, AI systems now can produce rather, let's say maybe shallow art like Hollywood, right? So maybe then it, it, it, you know, it occurred to me that it would be possible that we then start valuing deeper art more because it's so easy to create this sort of shallow type of art and, and with this reduced cost, Of producing this shallow type of art. Um, maybe the, the average consumer will, will start thinking more highly of, of deeper, more. Do you think this is a possibility or is this just my optimism?

Anatola Araba: 34:57

I think that is very optimistic and I think people like me and you will, will con, will value deeper art. And I don't understand why this is, but there is a lot of people who just enjoy some shallow works and content. And so maybe it's good that we can just produce more stories, more cookie cutter things for them, like entertain these people. Um, I might not know why, but there's definitely a reason. And I guess, um, you know, there a reason why that Hollywood has a similar generic thing or wants to continue to do things that they know is profitable, but. And maybe they only would need an AI to do that. Maybe they don't need. The value of human creativity.

Johannes Castner: 35:47

Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you watch, you know,

Anatola Araba: 35:51

but those deeper things will need humans, I think. I don't think you can use an AI to really create a nuanced, magical, beautiful story. I don't think that will be possible.

Johannes Castner: 36:02

Maybe sometime in the future when AI is something that isn't now. But definitely I agree with you right now. I, I think it's, that's far from it, but the Hollywood movies seem to fit the exact same bill. Right. Because it seems to me that, you know, they all have the same stories. Always. Some guy falling in love with some girl, some guns are involved, some bad guys, some good guys. It's always the same story.

Anatola Araba: 36:25

Exactly a villain, a dragon like an AI can easily know about the hero's journey. Easily say, okay, this is act one. This is act two. Easily learn scene structure easily fill in some characters with some names and make it all definitely. Definitely

Johannes Castner: 36:42

so Great, great. So lemme ask you some more about, you know, what do you find very exciting in this space right now? Where do you see artists expressing themselves using AI or using the Metaverse or other technologies? We haven't even talked about that. Cause I think you're also involving metaverse elements as well in your art. Is that, is that right?

Anatola Araba: 37:04

Yeah. Basically I've been starting to create a digital art museum that is in its own 3D virtual world, or as someone would call the metaverse, because I know that I've been, one of my like visions for the future was to create my own real museum. But with the power of the metaverse, I could just do it. In its own digital space. So I did build one with two unique theaters. It's space in a geodesic dome with buildings above the clouds and more where you can experience art and have conversations and whatnot. And I think that I'm, I'm just seeing what everything is. I think that there, it's an exciting time and that there's so much innovation, but also trying not to get too excited because it's also important to be discerning and see. What is really the point and purpose of a lot of things? Um, I think something that I've heard about this space is that like a lot of people can use the technologies, but kind of why, um, especially because the point will always be in the story. Like you can use great technology as much as you want, but it's the story that connects with the person that will always be why people wanna experience it and why people wanna come back and what you're really bringing of value. And so I think those things that have been as old as time will continue to be what is most important for artists and creators of all kinds. Like the tools by which we have told stories have evolved throughout all of history back from 50,000 years ago when we drew them on caves all the way until now when we can use AI to make it and everything in between. And so the tool can continue to evolve, but what is as old as time universal and not changing is the fact that we like to tell stories.

Johannes Castner: 39:18

That's true. So, lemme ask you a quick, uh, practical question. Where, where can you see your museum? Uh, how do you enter it and what equipment do you need to get into it?

Anatola Araba: 39:30

Yeah, so right now it's available at Reimagine io with the e and Reimagine being a three R three Imagine. And you can access it simply on your desktop, on your mobile phone, or just through a VR headset. Um, and it is on spatial, so it's very accessible and very easy to maneuver. And the purpose of this particular space was to support the UN's 2030 sustainability agenda and to visualize solutions to climate change. There is some AI art in there as well that is all visualizing smart cities, zero emission transportation, and other innovative solutions to the climate crisis, which is a collection that I created that showed it displayed in the futuristic imaginations exhibit at Art Basel in Miami this past year. And so, yeah, that's just some of the exciting things happening. I'm also interviewing various innovators for a docu-series being created called Innovation Insights. Currently, I've been able to interview great CEOs, founders, artists, and changemakers who are using technology in brand new and innovative ways. So you'll be able to see those interviews soon, and I definitely suggest, um, going to anatola.io and subscribing to my newsletter to be the first to hear when all of these things are able to be experienced and consumed and you're able to learn from them. And there will definitely be some great tools and tricks for you in there too. Fantastic.

Johannes Castner: 41:12

So I wanna ask you also, one more thing I wanted to ask you about as well is, um, your experience, uh, you were part of the, uh, 523 black accelerator program, uh, Snapchat's. Program. Um, and, and there I wanted to ask you, you know, how, how did, how did that help you or what did you gain some insights there, um, for the role of technology in fostering diverse creative careers?

Anatola Araba: 41:40

Absolutely. Yes. Thanks for asking. It's been really a life-changing experience to be a part of. Snapchat's 5 23 Black Creator Accelerator program and the program has been like an intensive in content creation, and if there is one area that AI can really help, it is in content creation. So if any content creators are listening, they know that there's a lot of moving parts, but that ultimately it's about providing value and connecting with your audience and showcasing your experience and expertise on subject. And that the standards is that you do need to be consistent and you need to be fast and of quality, and AI can help you cut out time in those areas. You can do things like recording a section of your voice so that an AI can make a voiceover for you without you having to be there every single time. Um, AI tools can help you optimize SEO for things like TikTok, YouTube, et cetera, and it can also soon be used for video. But those are really in the early stages. Um, but I think mostly that it's nice to be a part of a community of diverse creators who were all in different fields, whether it's in this technology, um, and creative space or all the way from being a fashion stylist. There's even a mermaid who is a professional mermaid or lots of different other people with very specific expertise. So it's great that we can all come together to support one another and also to learn from each other. And it's also, um, Snapchat has a partnership with Google Westbrook and Uncommon, who are all helping to make that happen. That

Johannes Castner: 43:30

sounds great. So how long is the program and, uh, how do you interact with each other?

Anatola Araba: 43:37

It is a one year program. And so because of this also it's been making Snapchat one of a, uh, a social media channel that I'm on a lot. In fact, I know that typically like people might look at my Instagram or something, but on Snapchat I do just like talk about whatever happened in my day or my thoughts about AI or these subjects and like just kind of share more things. So that can also be a place to connect with me on Snapchat at Anato Arab. And yeah, so basically we come together each month and we have master classes and workshops. They bring in celebrity talent. We had Jabari Banks who's a part of the new Fresh Prince of Belaire movie. Our very first class Will Smith himself even gave us a welcome address and we've had different guest experts across Snapchat and their partners of Google Uncommon and Westburg Media and so it's a great community. Also Snap, I think now maybe in the news because of its brand new my AI chat bot, but it has been being a more and more innovative company for a while, especially with its Snap AR lenses and these AR filters specifically on Snapchat that are very fun and funky and you can do lots of things with them. Actually recently made my own Snapchat filter that you can find in the center of my museum actually. But it is a lens about asking you how you imagine a green 2030 to look. Look, so it just encourages you to put it on and then imagine how 2030 might look if it went in a positive direction. And as I said at the beginning, I do believe that imagination is the greatest tool of humanity. So I think it's powerful to get people together and imagine how these futures may look like, because I know that as humans, we do create from what we imagine. And if the things swirling around and our collective, our imagination are dystopian fantasies are apocalyptic visions based on all the sci-fi not, um, movies and books that we have, we probably naturally won't even be able to imagine a positive outcome to these various issues we're facing, which are pretty dire and drastic. And so, I think that it's important and that it's not, um, a small thing to be able to propel positive visions for our future through imagination, since it is the first step to being able to then, as we were talking about, the gap between imagining and reality is getting shortened. And so it is the quickest way to then bring it into a lived experience. And when we talk about sustainability and climate change, those things are needed to be created. Mm-hmm.

Johannes Castner: 46:57

Absolutely. And I think it's really an interesting use of also the, the metaverse and ai maybe in combination as well, to be able to expose us to realities that may even not be possible. May be possible. And, and, you know, you, you can really ex explore different worlds. Right. Re relatively quickly without having to in fact be there. And so that, that might actually be able to do. Do you think that that could really turbo-charge our imagination in, in bringing us to these places.

Anatola Araba: 47:32

Yes, that's one of my favorite things about the world, currently known as the Metaverse, is that it's really a huge world building exercise, and I love world building. It's one of the reasons why I was interested in being a filmmaker and why I loved and wanted to make an animated short film. Because you're really able to create a world of your own through the environment and stories and colors and characters, and through the metaverse, you're able to create a world of your own at a whole new level. You can literally create your own buildings, your own culture if you want to, your own scenery, your own laws of physics, and it's so beautiful and you don't even need to hire a huge architect and buy land and everything. You can simply create, um, a beautiful. Building structure, community, a space for people to gather and it could just be housed online. So again, it kind of brings the barrier of creating your own spaces so low, where before you would need a physical space, but now you can have an even more cutting edge, even more aligned to your value space and you can decide every detail. Um, you know, and mine, I decided to create. Geodesic domes and have it during the sunset and very specific decisions because you're able to be the creator of your own world and you can own your own world. But I will say that one day I would like for this world to be right here in the real world. And so that is the goal, or the long-term vision, is for it to be a physical place that you can walk into. And it would be like going into a whole different world. And right now it starts as this metaverse version.

Johannes Castner: 49:29

That's interesting though. But there's a flip side to this, right? Maybe I'm, I'm wondering, are you worried about people escaping into this beautiful world that they can make? When and, and not worrying about the real world anymore, sort of, because you don't have to, you can always be in this, uh, you know, in this fantasy world, they were essentially escaping the real world. Is, is that a danger? Do you see that as a potential danger? Maybe this was always a danger with art, you know, that art could always be used as a sort of escape from reality. Maybe it's not really that new. I dunno. How do you feel about that?

Anatola Araba: 50:05

Right. So it's kind of like how I believe that humans are still gonna be forefront and stories will still be forefront. Our physical reality and world should still be forefront even if people forget it's still, you know, the world we come home to when we like take off our VR goggles is still our life. And cannot be mistaken. It cannot be mistaken for. Our lives however much in the same way that like people read books and get lost in that fantasy of the world and they might just be on their couch, but they forget about their lives and they get lost in the lives of these characters. And even though, yes, we're talking about a technology that is like going on your eyes or a technology where you're a little avatar and you're not even your real self and you feel like you're traveling, but you're actually just clicking buttons on a remote control. But I think there's a similarity in the way that humans love to get lost in worlds and that we're like constantly just begging to be brought and transported into another world. Even if we like our environment and if we don't like our environment and it can't replace the real world and like our physical reality. Is so important. And even if we deck out our avatars and get the cutest set up, we still need to make sure to take care of our bodies and our minds, because those are the things that are enabling us to enjoy these other realities and dimensions. So that's what I hope in its most healthy form. I know that there is a documentary, I believe it's on H B O,

Joe Hunting: 51:54

Hi, my name is Joe Hunting and I am the director of We Met in Virtual Reality, a documentary filmed entirely inside of social vr. Which is premiering in the world's documentary competition of the Sundance Film Festival 2022.

Anatola Araba: 52:09

but it's about people that connected in real life and only knew each other in vr, only knew each other through their avatars and had no idea how they looked in real life, but created such, such serious relationships that they all actually got married based on their virtual reality connection and like, It does. It helps us connect in different ways, and I think there's definitely unhealthy ways that it could be taken to the extreme, but in my vision, in the healthy version of this, it would replicate how we already get lost in films, how we go to the cinema, how we read books. And now we'll be able to be lost in Metaverse worlds now as well. And like you said, we can travel without actually leaving our homes, but of course our homes and our real lives are important for our happiness and our sense of connection. And health, while we navigate world's real and non. Um, I will say another interesting thing on this subject that I have heard, it's only a theory, but it's kind of interesting to grapple with, which is, you know how, so cities are increasingly becoming more, um, crowded and that people project that, I believe it's by 2050, 70% of humans will live in a city and that current agricultural systems and the cities themselves don't have the capacity to handle this. And what if the metaverse becoming a more popular place? Where people can hang out and entertain themselves and engage in big, real world events like concerts, fashion shows, social clubs. What if people didn't feel the need as much to live in a big, crowded, expensive city? Because they could get the satisfaction of being able to do so many things, go everywhere, hang out on a Friday night through the metaverse. That is a what if scenario, but what if it could actually de crowd our like overly populated areas and lead to a more, um, spread out effect. Just like how over the pandemic, a lot of people did move from cities to more rural areas. And so possibly the metaverse could have an effect like that as well. But of course, that's just a theory. I am a city person, love living in them. So don't know if I would trade them for the metaverse, but maybe in the future it could.

Johannes Castner: 54:52

So that also brings me to this question. Um, how do you see the role of an artist in all of this, and how do you see it evolve through this technological evolution? How do you feel that the role of the artist in self and society changes with all of this, if at all?

Anatola Araba: 55:12

I think that, yeah, the role of the artist will absolutely evolve, but it's more what the artist needs to do in order to bring their creations to life rather than their job. And why? Because I think that techno technological evolution is not new. As we were talking about before. If you think of films and cinema that people did used to study physically cutting the films and typing them together in order to create an experience. But that now you can take your iPhone, your Google Pixel, and then put it together into a movie, but it's still called film because it's referencing the physical material. And so in the same sense, a painter might not need all of the paints and colors and messy. Materials to make a painting, they can just go online, but it still has to visualize something and then bring it into existence somehow. So I think that, um, ultimately technology will never be the artist. It will always be a tool for the artist. Um, so if you have the idea and you have the ip, then that is still the most valuable thing. I, I actually think that technology can help artists just. Magnify their voice because for instance, even if you are an artist that works with your hands and you hate technology or you don't hate it, but you don't exactly wanna go make your own AI AI collection and have it in a gallery, you enjoy your physical process of making art. Just like how people don't have to cut physical film and tie them together in order to make a movie before, they might still choose to because of the artistry, but they can just record on their own mobile phone devices. And it's still considered filmmaking because it still references actual film. And in the same sense, artists don't necessarily need the physical materials to make a piece of artwork. But they can. And even if you're an artist that prefers the physical, prefers the handmade artworks, you can still have the power to take those physical artworks and create a world of your own in something like the Metaverse and bring those works to life and create an environment to house your creations that reflects your style without all of the resources needed for a physical space. Um, I still do ultimately think that humans will always be at the center of art. So I think that as we go forward, we can remember that that AI is a tool and technology will never be credited as the artist. I believe it will always be the person behind it that people want to recognize for their work. And I also think there's a beautiful marriage happening of very traditional mediums and new ones. For instance, I learned about an opera house in the Metaverse that is allowing opera singers to sing and express themselves in their own digital concert experience. Another thing is that it can help artists actually create businesses around their art. You can now ask Chad BT for a business plan or ask it to help with virtual assistant tasks that will help artists be able to monetize easier, be able to organize their work in a more marketable way, and essentially just make a more sustainable practice for themselves using these tools. And ultimately they can use these tools to give them more time to do what they do best, which is create

Johannes Castner: 59:22

I also have this question about what about, uh, technology as a subject of the artist nowadays. So do you, do you think that technology is becoming more of a subject, more of something to be concerned about, therefore deal with as a. It's something to talk about as an artist, it's something to work with because I, I think a lot of your work, it's around technology as well, right? And how Well technology and humans, right. So together in a way. Yeah. Is is that right? And, and, and is that more and more of a, like, evolution of the, of the, of the, how to say, the role of the artist? I was also meaning a little bit in that direction of, because of this acceleration of innovation and technology, maybe, you know, to make sense of it is something, you know, we, we all have to grapple with all of this, right? As it's changing our lives. And maybe the role of the artist has traditionally been to sort of help us deal with changes and deal with, with discomfort and angst and anxiety and so on. Uh, do you, do you think that there's something special about this transformative period that we're going through that artists have to address in a specific way or,

Anatola Araba: 1:00:26

absolutely. I think that throughout human history, art has reflected what we're going through as a culture. And even if you look all the way back to cave paintings, we. Created art around like the buffalo that we killed and stuff, and that now as we are on a global scale dealing with technologies like AI and other emerging technologies, we're naturally going to see that reflected in the art that we create. So I think it's only natural that in 100, 205 year, a hundred years from now, when people are looking back in their history class, which may be in VR or something, they'll like study the art made in this crazy time of the 2020 somethings and be like, oh yes, and this is when Chachi BT was created. And it'll be some art, like my short film, Afro algorithms and other works that are exploring what these things even mean on a larger scale. And I do think that. Art in a lot of ways is a way to like process and digest what is happening in a culture and ways to ideate on how it can be approved, but also just to ultimately be a marker stone for history and to almost establish our moment in history to freeze that in time. And I think that if there's not art about what's happening right now, then it, we could be at the mercy of this story being told for us, but by us telling our stories and sharing our experiences, then you know that our perspectives will be reflected in the story we tell about this moment later. Because I definitely think it's a tremendous moment in history that is going to be addressed just like the invention of the worldwide web or the invention of manufacturing and the convention line that allowed people. Not to do something like create cars manually, but instead create them on a mass scale. Something like the washing machine that saved us from spending 10 hours washing clothes to now only doing it in a couple in our own home or something like that. It's one of those things that is just cutting a chunk of something we spent so much time doing, and I think that it's great that we are able to use art and storytelling to explore what this means, how we feel about it, and how we can make sure that it works for everyone and has all, takes all perspectives into account. So I hope that people honestly do make more art using these tools and more art as a subject of them, especially in a positive way. Because I know earlier you were asking what some. Um, how some people had taken the short film afro algorithms, and one thing that does come up is how they didn't expect and were surprised that Arrow, who's the main AI character, the world's first AI leader, ha, is more positive and innocent. And that is because a lot of AI we see in media may have a negative portrayal, and that leads to a lot of the fear and uncertainty and feelings of being unsettled that we have about it, but in portraying them in a positive way, just like any representation on screen, portraying people that are different from you in a way that you can empathize and relate for them. I don't know how much you wanna empathize with an ai, but it is still powerful so that we. So that we can see how we can all work together to create the world that we want to.

Johannes Castner: 1:04:24

Fantastic. Do you, do you have any, um, anything that you would like the listener or the viewer to take along with as this something that they keep and in the long run?

Anatola Araba: 1:04:36

Um, I would just say that if you haven't already definitely watched the 3D animated short film Afro algorithms, you can find it on YouTube. And I would say that just to remember that they are the writer of their own story and that your story is being written right now as you speak, and that the most important words in the story are, and then because everything changes from there.

Johannes Castner: 1:05:04

Fantastic. So then I wanna have one more question that is, um, where, uh, how can listeners and viewers stay in touch with you and learn more about your work?

Anatola Araba: 1:05:13

Yes. I definitely welcome everyone to join me in this journey of creating things and making art that explores these topics happening in society, from AI to climate and everything in between. By visiting my website, ana.io, A n a t o l A. IO where you can connect with me on social channels, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, Twitter, if that still exists, all of the above. And of course, please sign up for my weekly newsletter, reimagine with Anato, where I give advice for visionaries who are seating the future while also keeping everyone up to date on different advancements in my museum space, in my docu-series and other important engagements. And so I think that's the best way to just become a part of a community and so that we can all work together in re-imagining the world as it could be one story at a time.

Johannes Castner: 1:06:17

This show is published every Wednesday at 2:00 AM in Los

Angeles, 5: 1:06:21

00 AM on the East Coast, and 10:00 AM in London in the uk. Please leave, um, ask comments, let us know what you like, what you don't like so much, what you would like to see on the show, uh, your hopes of the show. In other words. Next week I will be meeting with Ben Legg and we will be speaking about the future of work, the technologies involved, and how you can get ready for this future.

Ben Legg: 1:06:48

There are now countless forecasts that say by let's say 2030, you know, five, 10 years from now, something like only half the world will have a traditional full-time job, and the other half will be part of the gig economy. Now, some people might worry about that, I don't worry about that. But what it does take is people need to be much more thoughtful about how they make it work for them, as opposed to, let's say, being a pawn.